Tag: use of force

Pepper spray or handguns

Posted by Mostly Genius – August 1, 2009

I found Conservative Scalawag had linked to my post about pepper spray, and I think his post exemplifies what people do not understand about pepper spray and use of force in general.

While yes, pepper spray does have its place in the self-defense arena, it would not be my first choice.

Until we have a scenario we can’t make any judgements about what our choices should be. Leaving is generally my first choice, but even that isn’t always viable. There is no “pepper spray or gun” argument, because they fill different roles.

Yet, Mostly Genius believes that pepper spray can fulfill the non-deadly force niche.

There isn’t a “non-deadly force niche”, there are several. Pepper spray fills the niche right before we start striking people because if we can solve the problem at that level we will not have any need to escalate further.

Thing is, criminals are not going to tell you if their intent is deadly, or if they just want your watch. Therefor, you must treat all incidents with bad guys as possibly life-threatening to you. Sorry, but not a mind reader.

(Emphasis mine)
All incidents are potentially life threatening, but the law requires that we have an immediate and credible threat to our lives (or a third party) before we can apply deadly force. Again there is no “pepper spray or gun” argument. Deadly force is the correct response to lethal threats, but we can’t pretend that all threats are lethal or that “potential” is the same as “actual.”

However, I will admit there are times pepper spray comes with me. Those are the times when I cannot carry a gun,due to silly rules, or Byzantine rules. Otherwise, I carry a gun, and with the full intent of using it to STOP the bad guys from victimizing me or my family.

Keeping in mind that pepper spray is basically a step above strong language, it is not a suitable handgun replacement. Pepper spray fills an entirely different role than firearms do. The perfect role for pepper spray is reinforcing a verbal command. We can pepper spray belligerents for continuing to approach when told to stop, it would be very hard to justify shooting them.

For while pepper spray may work a certain percentage, guns, when used properly, work 100% of the time.

Without quibbling about proper use, guns certainly do not work 100% of the time or anything approaching it. Most criminals do quit without any shots being fired, but some require multiple good hits to be put down and those criminals sometimes inflict a lot of injury and trauma before they finally do stop. I certainly agree that handguns are better fight stoppers than pepper spray, but we can’t use handguns in the same situations where we could use pepper spray.

Even more pepper spray

Posted by Mostly Genius – July 23, 2009

So after this post about pepper spray and the commentary here it seems like a lot of people are still not getting my point.

Using less lethal in deadly force scenarios. Nobody would choose to fight a knife wielding attacker with their fists if they had anything else available. Seeing as how fist fighting is more force than pepper spray, clearly pepper spray is not the answer to deadly force attacks.

Bypassing less lethal tools in deadly force scenarios. There is a lot of confusion about the use of force continuum. Law enforcement has been addressing this in their training for at least a decade: it’s not a ladder and you don’t have to touch every rung. A lethal threat warrants a lethal response. An escalating situation (as most are) provides room for stopping the fight before it becomes a deadly force encounter.

Liability of not using less lethal in deadly force scenarios. This theory that having pepper spray and not using it in a deadly force situation is going to somehow expose you to more legal liability is totally spurious. This is like saying you better not take a martial art, because you will be expected to use some ninja move instead of your firearm. I don’t shoot because I don’t know how to do anything else, I shoot because my training has told me that this is only appropriate response to the circumstance.

Pepper spraying people is trivial. Especially in comparison to shooting people. If you can effect a stop with pepper spray then you aren’t going to be justifying your shooting in court. This is the most likely case: bad guy gets sprayed and quits. Some people are trying to optimize their equipment selection for defending themselves against manslaughter charges: “I carry nothing but deadly force tools”. I would recommend optimizing for winning the fight in a way that gets you the least involvement with the legal system.

I’d just run away. So would I, if I could. This stops being the perfect answer as soon as you are a better runner than your significant other or children. If they aren’t within arms reach it could very well turn into you needing to stand and fight while they get away.

I’d just shoot them. Ultimately I see a lot of people painting themselves into a corner where they are going to have to pull the trigger in order to have any self defense response. I hear a lot of talk in training circles about “lethal force options.” Lethal force is not optional, it’s mandatory. If I had a choice to make I would choose something other than shooting. Lethal force is what happens when all those options are taken away. If I am not facing a deadly force threat then shooting isn’t even an option.

The Private Citizen Equipment Poll

Posted by Mostly Genius – July 17, 2009

This poll is focusing on the equipment that people carry in their role as private citizens. Clearly law enforcement or military will carry more (and different) equipment, so I am not really focusing on that. I am interested in seeing what the “everyday carry” is for most of our readers.

If you are going to choose “none of the above” then you probably shouldn’t select any of the above as well. If I am missing something from the list, please let me know in comments.

What is your 'private citizen' daily carry equipment?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

Use of Force

Posted by Mostly Genius – March 20, 2009

Use of Force Spectrum

The use of force chart is useful for private citizens to understand how the police (and the courts) tend to view a particular tool or technique. I make a lot of references to the use of force and forgot I hadn’t posted this graphic. There are a few inconsistencies: the order of pepper spray, taser, and arrest control/pain compliance techniques tends to vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. An individual police departments use of force policy will dictate where these items actually fall on “their” version of the chart.