The latest round of the 3 percenter nonsense

Posted by – December 2, 2008

I am afraid that I don’t really have the time or interest to continue to refute every comment point-by-point. You guys certainly don’t lack for verbiage. I will do my best to summarize and represent what I consider to be the major issues in this discussion. While I recognize this steals some fairness from the process I don’t have time to keep saying the same things to the half dozen people posting comments.

Mr. Vanderboegh has responded to my previous statements here: Pragmatism is as pragmatism does

Hopefully I am fairly paraphrasing the 3% position about the “front door” as referenced above, in the comments, and in Vanderboegh’s previous writings:

After some new edict the government will begin some level of house to house actions, and if caught alone (one of the early houses) a 3 percenter intends to shoot it out as best they can. As these raids become more frequent and commonplace, local 3 percenters will band together into fire teams and squads and shoot it out as a group. Eventually this scenario will become cyclical with more resources of government being deployed to deal with a growing resistance until we reach a point of civil war, with the goal of the resistance being a revolution/restoration of the framers republic.

The threat or fear of this cycle of violence is supposed to chasten the government in it’s actions and/or make the agents of the government reconsider taking that action.

Finally this plan is supposed to put everyone on notice that the actions of the government might well push things to the point of kicking this whole course of action into gear.

I hope that is an accurate summary of the 3 percenter position as put forth in your writings and comments. I would say that is a very different and much more limited position from you earlier statement in your much celebrated letter to the editor:

There are some of us “cold dead hands” types, perhaps 3 percent of gun owners, who would kill anyone who tried to further restrict our God-given liberty. Don’t extrapolate from your own cowardice and assume that just because you would do anything the government told you to do that we would.

(Emphasis mine)
The “front door” position is about fighting when the government raids your home. The “further restrict” position I would assume has a much broader application? Repealing concealed carry would be a further restriction, but it is unlikely it would cause house to house raids. Which side of the line does that fall on? Are you expanding the position of defending the “front door” or are you retreating from the “further restrictions”?

It seems a common theme amongst the 3 percent that they will not be the ones to start the violence. “No Fort Sumpters” as it were. This presumes that there is some agreed upon triggering event (either “further restriction” or “front door”) that gets the ball rolling, and then we get open civil war:

People don’t AGREE on revolution, they are FORCED into it by events. And there are enough of my kind, the three percent, to create the events. Have you learned nothing from history? It is made by determined minorities. We may be a minority but we are determined. If you want to hang onto ANY of your guns or other liberties, you will HAVE to fight. We will make sure of that.

(Emphasis mine)
Am I wrong to read this as once some arbitrary block (or set of blocks) is checked that the 3 percent is then going to “force” civil war? I am guessing through an ever increasing number of independent and/or small group actions as outlined in the “front door” portion. Or does this occur after the government has continued it’s actions and things have escalated to “red dawn” purportions?

As for us Three Percenters, this is as far as we’re backing up. If they draw the line behind us, we will stand where we are. After they come to compel the first few in our homes and succeed in killing us, in effect declaring war upon the lives, liberties and property of the entire American people, the rest of us Three Percenters will defend ourselves by a war of manuever that will make them wish they’d never thought of it.

(Emphasis mine)
I think there has been some slight of hand with the term “defense.” It has not been used incorrectly, but has been used inconsistently. We have gone from defending homes and families (direct protection) to a defensive war of maneuver (defense by a good, tactically adept, offense.) If you are going to fight a war then maneuver is the way to go, assuming that your forces can actually operate like that. I can not really speak to skill, training, and readiness of the 3 percenters, but we can all agree that attrition warfare would probably not work out for them. According to the “front door” scheme of maneuver attrition seems to be the “go signal” for opening the wider war.

Regarding what the modern militia movement has done: I can’t think of anything, especially in terms of fighting off tyranny by force of arms. Vanderboegh has suggested a book I need to read that will disabuse of this notion. I have my doubts, but fair enough.

Regarding name-calling: I certainly don’t have the time or effort to go through all of the posts and comments and find all of the references to anyone who doesn’t drink the kool-aide as being some flavor of coward, statist, enabler, traitor, or pany-waist to name just a few. The only name that I have called anyone was “blowhard” and I did so because it was (and remains) accurate.

Regarding references or associations to past military glory: I don’t see how Vanderboegh can deny attempting to bask in the reflected glow of these historical references when he attempts to draw allegorical parallels between the parties involved. I am not an expert, but I think this the propaganda technique known as “transfer.” Apparently it is all just an inspirational style derived from historical facts and anecdotes. It is generally the best thing in all of his essay pieces.

In summary there is a widely scattered disorganized group with a lot of different ideas about where the line is drawn, when action is going to be taken, and what that action will consist of. These variables change not only from individual to individual, but from time to time as well. There are some that are already claiming credit for being “resisters” and a lot that are calling other people cowards over the internet.

As always please feel free to comment, but really try to keep things on point. More that likely I will approve any comment, but unless you are covering new ground I am probably not going to answer it.

Update:

Vanderboegh has left his pathetic, straw-man response here. He addresses none of the points above, nor does he clarify, amplify or defend any of his previous statements. Vanderboegh remains a do-nothing blow hard.

Update: All of my posts on this topic:
The 3 percenter Nonsense
More 3 percenter Nonsense
The latest round of the 3 percenter Nonsense
Questions for the 3 percent

  • Ballard Nikolai

    Your sick for attacking a group of people who excersise there freedom. Fuck your radical bullshit!

  • Radical. I'll have to remember that one. Can you even read?

  • Bitter Clinging Texan

    He is obviously more coherent than you are. The III% are regular Americans, who want nothing more than to be left in peace and for an end to tyrannical, oppressive firearms laws that have plagued this nation since 1934. All of your goading, and your smug, self serving ad hom attacks on us because we aren't in the streets shooting at every fed we see wont work. Although we would be morally justified in every sense to be out killing ATF agents, local police who enforce unconstitutional gun laws(requiring of a permit to carry, banning open carry, forbidding of full auto weapons, etc), Politicians who vote for oppressive, stalinist gun laws(If we were the violent maniacs that your lamestream media and SPLC portays us as, then scum like schumer, fienstien, boxer, Daley, and company would have ceased unhindered oxygen consumption long ago), and "celebrities" and pundits who advocate the rape of our most important right( thats right, bill maher, Rosie, Rachel Madcow and the rest deserve lead as much as the jack booted thugs who are nothing more than the modern day version of Ezhov/Beria's NKVD) WE ARE NOT DOING THAT FOR SERVERAL REASONS. First and foremost, as patriotic Americans, we are determined to exhaust any and every peacable means to defend our freedom while avioding the horrors that come with pretty much every revolution and civil war  since the begining of time. and Secondly, we are a leaderless movement and either individuals or small groups will decide for themselves when the ballot box is obsolete and it's time to reach for the cartridge box

  • So you are a leaderless moment where individuals and/or small groups will decide when they have been infringed upon enough and retaliate with violence - but you want to be part of a club and have a patch. You want to attach yourself to the militias of the American revolution (despite having done nothing yourselves) but distance yourselves from the wacko militias like the hutaree (despite sharing some of their ideology).
    Silly. Irrelevant.

  • Bitter Clinging Texan

    you are either stupid or a liar. Or possibly, most likely both. You are the one who is irrelevant. You got owned by me and responded with outright lies ASAP. I never mentioned the Hutaree, nor do I or any other III percenter that I know share their ideology. Nor do all or even most III percenters wear a patch. Put up or shut up. Prove that I share the ideology of the hutaree or apologize to me for lumping me in that category.

  • You stated: "Although we would be morally justified in every sense to be out killing ATF agents, local police who enforce unconstitutional gun laws"
    The hutaree would agree. Are they not in the club? Who in your leaderless movement is in charge of regulating membership? Clearly the hutaree were a small group of individuals decided that the ballot box wasn't working. Maybe you don't support the fringe religious underpinning of the hutaree, but clearly you agree that the government is eroding our civil rights in direct violation of the constitution.

    Perhaps you should read the writings of your founder/spokesman. He has denounced your "all peaceful means" as cowardice and drawn a line in the sand (which he continually moves farther back.)

    If you are part of a movement that advocates or sympathizes with the killing of government officials and agents for unconstitutional actions ("morally justified") then you've earned comparison with groups that believe the same (the hutaree). (proven, owned, lulz, dude.)

    If you are part of a leaderless moment you theoretically are joining a group of people with similar (not identical) ideologies. You cannot control who joins your movement, nor can you expel them for their ideas or actions.
    You want to be a group of regular guys that are taking a stand for your
    rights. Except there is no stand (save chirping on the internet) and there
    is no group (save some imagined number of like minded individuals willing to
    type.)

    I am not advocating that you take action, I am advocating that you stop
    talking about actions that you will never take. You are not shaking your
    guns in the tyrants face. Graffiti and vandalism is not revolution or civil
    war.

    Why do I want you to shut your collective suck holes? Because you are
    counter productive. All of the recent gains in legal protection and more
    importantly public opinion regarding gun rights happened despite the
    grandstanding and threats of your fellow travellers.

    The govt is using the threat of "domestic terrorism" as a justification for
    increased encroachment on our rights. There is no deterrent effect in empty
    threats. The only reason the militia movement isn't just simply ignored is
    because of the actions of McVeigh, various racist groups, and hutaree nut
    jobs. If the militias weren't tarred with the same brush they wouldn't be
    getting any ink.

    Because the militias are tarred with the same brush the soccer moms that
    want guns for self defense against criminals are given pause by fat guys in
    camouflage screaming about killing government officials. The soccer moms
    don't get that you are all hot air.

  • amused

    If it needs explaining, it's unlikely your egghead is worthy of the time investment.  You will know when it happens.  If you have nothing worth dying for, you have nothing worth living for.  But I can't help wonder where your intellectual "Essay dealing with gun control" got you?  In what way did it "Deal with" anything other than to self aggrandize your ideology within your pathetic little communist social circle?  Do the world a favor, and write an essay on this. http://www.scaruffi.com/politi...

  • Yeah, that post was written 2008. In the years following Obama's election there have been numerous additional restrictions placed upon our god given liberty and for all of the bluster of the militia tough guys I don't see a lot of militia skirmishes against the government (certainly none endorsed by the 3%).

    MV said "Don’t extrapolate from your own cowardice and assume that just because you would do anything the government told you to do that we would." Apparently we are well past making assumptions. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader if the 3% are cowards or merely hypocrites. Random vandalism surely seems to fall short of the promise to "kill anyone who tried to further restrict our God-given liberty."

    Additionally, unlike your "alleged leader" I have never been a communist (recanted or otherwise.) I am not sure that proving Communism is genocidal ideology (agreed) has anything to do with the discussion at hand. You may now go about the rest of your day being really excited about talking a good fight, I just wonder that isn't the bloom off of that rose yet after all these years of inaction?

  • Phinieas

    of course 3% is more than plenty. Americans are better armed than any nation on earth, yes civilians! if a few hundred thousand backward minded "terrorists" can hold off the entire US army for a decade, then 9 million will certainly not be abused by it. They are trying to nip the awakening in the bud because they have already crunched the numbers.

  • Hi.
    I've read many of the posts dealing with the III percenter debate, and I think just about everyone involved has raised may important questions that everyone else should think about seriously.
    What I don't understand is all the name calling and insults. Defending Constitutional freedom at any level requires a lot of forethought, and forums like this bring out a lot of good thought.

    I'd like to offer (wait a second, let me put on a helmet and duck in a fox hole) an essay I wrote several years ago dealing with armed resistance to gun control. Not for one second will I say it addresses everything, but it's one more thing to consider.

    I don't really think I added anything new to this thread, but hey, anything that causes our side to think more should be welcome.

    WHEN IS IT TIME TO START SHOOTING? http://www.comeandtakeit.com/w...

    Outline of Contents: (you have to go to the website to read it)

    WHEN IS IT TIME TO START SHOOTING? --main essay, from http://www.comeandtakeit.com . I would certainly like to hear from people in law enforcement and military.

    Possible Confrontations
    Past Confrontations
    Common Themes Of Confrontations
    Preparing For Confrontations

    1. Know The Truth
    2. Develop Key Allies
    3. Meet People On Their Level
    4. Bring Along The Population
    5. Keep Your Eyes Open And Your Mind Sharp
    6. Know Your Friends, And Know How To Communicate With Them
    7. Inform The Masses
    8. Defend
    9. Those In Power Should Speak Out And Stand Up

    Appendices:

    Appendix I
    WHY WILL MANY PEOPLE NOT SHOW UP TO HELP US?

    Appendix II
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: GUARANTOR OF THE REST OF THE CONSTITUTION, AND WORTH DEFENDING WITH YOUR LIFE.

    Appendix III
    CASE STUDIES

    The Branch Davidians.
    Randy Weaver/Kevin Harris
    Boston Massacre.
    The Disarming of Boston.
    Lexington Green.
    Gonzales, Texas 1835
    An Un-named Fellow Who Went Armed In Public
    Joe Gray.
    Indianapolis Baptist Temple
    Road Blocks.
    The Police Officer Accused Of Raping A Woman.
    California Gun Confiscation, House To House Searches, .50 BMGBuyback/Confiscation, Class III Confiscation

    Appendix IV
    A FEW MISCELLANEOUS NOTES NOT YET INCORPORATED INTO THE MAIN ESSAY

    Non-lethal defenses
    Does an armed populace guarantee liberty?
    When is it time to STOP shooting?
    "Tax Protesting"
    A Few Biblical Reasons Why We Should Not Flee To Another Country To Escape The Coming Confrontations.

    http://www.comeandtakeit.com
    http://www.comeandtakeit.mobi (for cell phones)

  • When is it time to put up or shut up? No one can tell.

    It depends on the level of disaffection. If it is low some big event or series of events may be required. If it is high a traffic stop might do it.

    The fact that people are preparing ought to be warning enough for politicians. Will it be enough this time?

    You might want to have a look at chaos theory. Depending on the strength of the strange attractor and the point in the cycle it may take a lot to change the system state or a little. Very little.

  • The problem with civil wars is that you can't tell the criminals from the patriots. It is always one of the most difficult problems post civil war.

    It was a big problem in France post WW2. The Brits armed French Patriots and French criminals. Any one who would fight the Germans. The result was many decades of armed unrest post war and a series of French governments with an average life of about one year.

    And how about Spain post the Napoleonic wars? That is still not quite over.

    It is a warning to government. Your life will not be safe from patriots legitimately wronged or criminals who feel an "injustice" has been done. Of course those of the "controlling authority" seldom read history. They decide that "We Won" confers unwarranted authority. Pity.

  • David Codrea:
    I have to say that I really enjoy your blog and a number of the pieces that you write.

    Stand with Mike? What 'stand' is that?

  • I'm proud to stand with Mike.

  • Kelly

    All I have seen the 3% do is stockpile ammunition and complain about an "enemy" that has no concern for them,because they do absolutely nothing. Talking a lot ,consumes a great deal of air,but results in merely being winded. Which subsequently is no surprise being that you 3% are still doing a whole lot of NOTHING. Not a whole lot of organizing can really occur from your couches,for that matter not a whole lot of change which you so covet can happen from there either.Forget your "line",it's irrelevant if you cant even be moved to properly organize yourselves. It seems that the 3%ers greatest foe is their inability to recognize their own complacency. It sound like you are saying " I'll do something when it conveniently arrives at my doorstep, because I cannot be moved from my couch."
    Subsequently, using references of people who HAVE done something (Greeks,Minutemen,Irish etc...) doesn't do anything other than remind people that you STILL have done NOTHING. You have nothing in common with these brave men.

  • Jayne:
    I would say that I did him the courtesy of addressing his questions and now it is his turn. I would say that I made the effort to represent his position accurately using his own direct quotes and his response was to fictionalize my position and start asking more questions. This a dodge so that instead of explaining or defending his position he can attack mine. I am not really sure why everyone believes I have a plan. I don't want to overthrow the government or slaughter my fellow Americans.

    The 'threat' of the 2nd Amendment is implicit. Making statements about violent revolution doesn't make the 2nd Amendment stronger. It creates a climate of fear, but not among the politicians - among the people who vote them into office.

  • yitzhakbenavi

    Maybe that is not a bad thing that the population being the ones who fear. One should fear having their rights taken away. This was written a year ago. obama is now president and he is moving in the direction that the III percenters are fearing. what say you now?

  • Jayne Cobb

    So it's just a back and forth of : "you answer first!"? That seems to be what this discussion is.

    As for taking a stab at speaking for Mike, I can't pretend to read his mind; however, I think he understands that the 2nd Amendment works as a safeguard of liberty only if the threat of an armed populace has any teeth. perhaps his problem with you and the "pragmatists" is that you're always warning against actually appearing the threat that the 2nd Amendment is supposed to be.

    I dunno, that's just the way I see it, my "Stab at it". I'm just a ordinary guy, no consitutional scholar. Take it for what it's worth.

  • Reverend Franz:
    I suggest you do a little more research, MBV has argued for training at the fire team and squad level. He has argued for preparing caches of supplies and equipment. It is hard to argue that waging a "defensive war of maneuver" is an individual task. In short he has argued for the standard militia "prepare for war" stuff. To say otherwise is simply not the facts.

    There is certainly a group of people that will resist further incursions upon their liberties and some are already doing it. Some of these people we would quickly agree are patriots, and others we could just as quickly agree are criminals.

    I agree that there are those who will not submit, but that is very different than actively resisting or taking the fight to the government. There is a larger population that just gun owners that are mad at the government. The extreme left also argues for violent revolution, they just want to end up with anarchy or a communist state.

    So out of the available pool of the resistance, the more extreme the action the fewer there are willing to execute. This is especially true of a 'leaderless' movement. There are a lot people that would start shooting if the ATF kicked in their door, and far less that would start shooting if/when the next AWB passes. Mostly I would expect a lot of non-compliance.

    If the ultimate goal is a return to the founders republic, then there are some big practical issues with attempting to get there by revolutionary means. A primary one being that the bulk of the population doesn't know what that is and/or doesn't want it. As we move toward socialism we are giving more and more to the people who are doing less and less. Property rights and personal responsibility don't sound very appealing to those living in free housing and having excuses.

    Finally, I am really sick of the bombast and the hyperbolic statements. The "voting doesn't work, the courts are corrupt, it's time for a war" crowd doesn't seem to be going to war. For all of the line drawing and higher moral conviction they don't actually do anything. As I have recently witnessed the depth of their conviction runs as far as attempting to shout down dissent.

    I am pointing out that it is with their own statements that they have painted themselves into a corner. They decided to get behind an absolute position: "here and no farther." When is it time to put up or shut up then?

  • I dont honestly think anyone here, though i cant speak for everyone, is trying to force a civil war. The fact is that people are looking for solutions, as they have for years. Civil war would require not only a large body of support, both public and private, it would require a type of organization that not only doesnt exist, the forming of such doesnt seem to be a goal of Mr. Vanderboegh's. He has repeatedly warned against forming units or any such, as it creates targets and weakens the overal effect of the 3%. The 3% itself, i would say, is not an ideological concept, you cant join up, and if you could, there are not really that many (if any) people who might be converted by Mr. Vanderboegh's writings, but i would say that the concept is a fact, one that has been noted by many other people in the past.

    The fine author of the blog The Smallest Minority, i beleive it was, calls it "Hitting the Reset Button" and Janice Joplin noted many years ago that in some cases, "freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." I would say that the entire concept of there being a 3% goes much farther back than Mr Vanderboegh, and is an actual verifiable fact.

    The fact is, that there will always be a small percentage of people who, when faced with the choice of giving something up they hold dear in unfeeling subservience, or risking losing everything, including life, especially when that choice is offered violently or with force, will simply choose to react violently, and in fact risk everything. The classic example, of which there is ample writing on, is the case of Carl Drega, who, when harrassed relentlessly by authority and the concept of governmental domain, finally snapped and went on a killing spree that actually spanned state lines, if i recall.

    This, i would venture, was not the end goal of either Carl Drega, the law, or his harrassers. Goals had nothing to do with what happened. Something just hit his reset button, he had nothing left to lose in his mind, and he made a decision.

    The concept of goals has little to do with the actual existence of 3%, but with the law of unintended consequences, which im sure you have heard Mr Vanderboegh speak of.
    The fact is, the more that civil society chooses to restrict individual freedoms, as it always does, more and more people will be faced with those hard choices, to give it up, or to push back.

    I would say, and im only conjecturing here, that MVB's goal, far from being fomenting civil war would be to warn those social engineers that can only see problems with that "the only tool we have is a hammer" solution, namely governmental law and the application of force, that their actions may have unintended consequences. Not from him, not from his readers, persay, but as a fact of life.

    There will always be a percentage that will not submit.

    There will always be a percentage of simpathizers who will immediately seek to help those they feel are being abused by the wheels of a unjust state.

    I cant say anymore than you can if those folks would be seen as martyrs or not. Nor can i say if one of those uninteded consequences might be a civil war in the streets of america. My question is still, how many people would have to be hanged, or killed outright before popular opinion might swing to the point that the people stop asking their governments to act so violently on their behalf, and in fact, or force them if need be, to stop.

    Again, i didnt know in the above, what you thought was wrong about what you see as the MVB platform, and i really would like to know what you would like to see done, or where you "go no further" line in the sand might be.

    Someone once told me that if you beleive in something, you would die for it, without exception, for at the moment you are unwilling to die for something you beleive in, you ceased to beleive in anything past the point where someone else threatens to kill you over it. If a mere threat can erase your convictions, they cant really be seen as convictions, can they?

  • Jayne Cobb:

    I'll worry about answering those questions from MBV right after he is done answering mine. Take a stab at answering for him if you like.

  • Jayne Cobb

    "These are absolutely fair questions, but I am not going to answer them at this time. MBV is dodging the whole damn discussion at this point."

    actually, the way I read it, he's not. He's simply asking you these same "absolutely fair questions" and the only response he ever gets from you is of the "I am not going to answer them at this time" variety.

  • Reverend Franz:

    "I don't know anything about forcing civil war" I am not sure how to take that. Are you saying it isn't one of MBV's goals? or that it isn't a goal you agree with?

    I think you might have point about a dozen Wacos, but I don't see the government giving them to you. Waco was special because of the way the government handled it, but more so because they did so in the media spotlight.

    I can't answer the 'how many have to hang question' (nor can anybody else.) I am guessing that they will need quite a few martyrs before you can expect popular support. I don't see the government providing them for a number of reasons:

    If we are assuming that the government can pass all sorts of unconstitutional laws, bypass due process, and seize private property at will then why do they need to go house to house? What would the purpose of the SWAT raids? It's not like they have to hurry.

    "What would you like to see done, and where is your line, and what would you defend, consistently or no?"
    These are absolutely fair questions, but I am not going to answer them at this time. MBV is dodging the whole damn discussion at this point.

  • I do believe you have made a fairly thorough and academic dissection of the subject of hand, by far the most complete of this recent series, but i think i must have missed something, at least in this article.

    What exactly do you disagree with?

    Myself, i dont know anything about forcing a civil war, but i do wonder about what will happen when americans do, perhaps, see people indescrimately gunned down in the name of civil order, repeatedly. In the 90's i didnt think the US would be able to take 3 or 4 more Wacos, so what would happen if there were a dozen? What if military peacekeeping forces were introduced, only to face a state that could be described as anything but peaceful? I know where many people have layed out their own lines in the sand, but where exactly is the concensus reached?

    the question i have to ask, and do, almost daily, is how many men have to be hanged before the general populous, as a whole, is aware of, and objects to, the situation at hand? On April, 19th, 1775 a good number of men walked to their front doors to defend their townships from the troops of the crown, who had already fired on civilians on the greens of Lexington and Concord, knowing in fact that if they were tried for the act, they would be hanged. They didnt know if anyone would support them, or if they would indeed be hanged, and i wonder if, today, anyone knows how many of this 3% might also be hanged, or shot, or burned to death after a SWAT team member tosses a flash bang, before the average american will offer his support to condem the actions of a government that had long since forgotten the phrase "For the people, by the people"

    What would you like to see done, and where is your line, and what would you defend, consistently or no?

    These seem like fair questions, in an age that leaves us with many.

  • Mike Vanderboegh

    http://sipseystreetirregulars....

    A Pragmatist's View of History: The Final Chapter

    (At least until they answer the $64,000 Question.)

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