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Mostly Genuius: Thank you for your clarification, although not the sarcasm. I was not referring to government military operations or a pre-planned ambush. We live in an age when rapidly spreading and intensifying terrorism may require private citizens to defend themselves instead of waiting for the Cavalry. I am well aware of the necessity for the checking and loading equipment prior to the undertaking of any task. I am simply pointing out, as I did earlier, that the LCI is a tool, subject to the same considerations of any other tool, including other parts of a firearm. For the private citizen who is in immediate trouble, and may not be as professionally slick as you, the LCI may save his/her life. I am not arguing with you that a chamber-check is paramount. And Rule #1 is always Rule #1. I am simply suggesting that the LCI is not a "stupid invention." I won't bother you anymore with my mostly ignorant observations.

Timbre:
You are still missing the point. You will not be chamber checking in a gunfight. If your chamber was unloaded at the start of the gun fight then you are going to apply immediate action and drive on. "It's a tool" doesn't hold any water. It an attempt at making a technical solution to a training problem.

Professional slickness aside, I can certainly envision a private citizen needing to fight terrorists/Active shooters. There are two states here: chamber loaded and chamber unloaded.

In the case of the chamber being loaded, confirmation is a feel-good maneuver, it doesn't change the state of the chamber.

In the case of the chamber being unloaded you haven't explained what is going to happen when it's time to take a shot. The state needs to change in order to make the shot. There isn't a stealth-load.

@Timbre
A chamber check is an administrative procedure, it is not done under time pressure. A manual chamber check does not require a visual inspection of the chamber.

If you are in a fire fight you will quickly determine if you have a round in the chamber or not because of the old, universal, standard, loaded chamber indicator: the loud "bang" noise that happens when you press the trigger.

If you are imagining some kind of ambush scenario, you would have loaded your weapon and chamber checked prior to setting into the ambush. I guess if I am going to play along: in this scenario what happens when your LCI indicates that the chamber isn't loaded?

I am not sure why you are ambushing with a handgun, and I have never seen a loaded chamber indicator on any M-16, M-4, M-1A, or AK-47 that I have ever been issued. Clearly your ambush edge case is not a military priority. I think this is because loading your weapon prior to moving out on the operation has successfully solved this problem (and a host of others) since the introduction of firearms to military applications.

Mostly Genius: I do not understand your post at #14. If you are in low-light combat, during a firefight, a visual chamber check is impossible. And doing it by feel means, most certainly, creating enough noise with the action to give away your position. I do not understand how you can say "There is no military/stealth application for a loaded chamber indicator." The scenario I just gave, however rare, demonstrates otherwise.

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In low-light combat, there are situations where employing a chamber check, visually or with digit, will produce enough sound of the slide action to give away your position. The LCI is a silent method for one to quickly feel if a round is chambered. I don't see this as a safety issue. Just as the weapon is a tool, the LCI is also a tool.

In combat (or otherwise) you should have handled the administrative loading of the weapon and checking it's condition of readiness as part of your pre-combat check. There is no military/stealth application for a loaded chamber indicator. Depending upon the LCI to replace the chamber check is asking for trouble.

I don't think a discreet check is unnecessary fiddling after you have been riding in a car for 3 -4 hours, especially with a striker fired pistol. Like I said, I always press-checked when holstering in the morning and would just discreetly run my finger along the LCI and my thumb on the striker to make sure all was in battery when exiting a vehicle. That was when I carried an XD. I carry a Sig now and do not find this necessary. Not only is there no LCI on a Sig, but also the 40 pound slide is far less likely to move against seat belts and coats and such as is a striker.

@FatWhiteMan
That strikes me as unnecessary fiddling. Chamber-check it when you holster it and/or when you put the holster on. The chamber check works with all semi-autos. If the state of the gun changes I am confident that I will notice.

Regarding safety, you are talking about a device that prevents accidents where the gun is pointed in an unsafe direction, the safeties are disengaged, and the trigger would be pressed EXCEPT for seeing the LCI.

N.U.G.U.N.: “The 'gun is always loaded' rule has been dropped from a lot of training material because it’s a paradoxical rule. It conflicts with other rules (ie: Keep gun unloaded until you are ready to use it!). It’s a 'mindset' more than a rule.”

Range lawyers will nitpick it to death but the rule should instill a healthy respect for firearms. Like many rules, there are times where it will be bent or broken. Because it is not an airtight rule does not mean it is not valuable.

I agree with MG, the NRA rules that you are talking about are not designed for gunfighters, they are designed for recreational shooting. Brillianter is not a recreational shooting blog.

N.U.G.U.N.:“Extra safety options may keep a Darwin award from being issued.”

If you are a Darwin award candidate, no safety devices will help you.

N.U.G.U.N.:“There are times when you might want to quickly know if a handgun is loaded. (ie: combat) Saw you had a jam or something... (Not everyone carries hot.)”

That is a training problem. MG already mentioned immediate/remedial action. No sensible, well trained person carries in condition three in any situation where fighting is anticipated. If you carry a gun for self defense it should be loaded, condition one. Period. If you don't trust yourself to carry in condition one, then you really ought to reevaluate your training.

N.U.G.U.N.:“Legal defense for gun manufacturers. They need every legal defense they can get.”

This plays right into the anti-gun strategy by accepting their fallacious premise (that guns are inherently unsafe products and the consumer has to be protected from them).

I simply don't trust a loaded chamber indicator and I will never abide this fetish that people have for safety devices when proper training is more effective and reliable. I would argue that an LCI actually encourages complacency and makes an accident MORE likely, not less.

Here is a hypothetical for you: suppose you are doing drills with dummy rounds and you make a huge mistake and inadvertently insert a magazine with live rounds into the gun. Will your loaded chamber indicator make any difference there? Would a chamber check produce a different result?

I agree with Phil. When I carried an XD, it was a nice reassurance that the chamber was indeed loaded, not used to ensure it was empty. I never got into the habit of relying on it instead of a press-check (one of the features I liked on the XD were the factory cut serrations on the front of the slide to aid in a press-check). Instead, I used it as a way to reassure myself it was loaded in a more discreet manner. A simple finger down the top of the chamber and my thumb on the striker as I was exiting a vehicle let me know that it had not come out of battery while driving.

I agree that if relied upon exclusively they are indeed dangerous. As far as the most dangerous device I don't know about that. If they have saved a couple of lives because of someone's otherwise bad practice then maybe they have some value.

When I bought an HK USP Compact in 2000 I didn't even notice the LCI until I disassembled the gun after some range time. It was required by law in Cali so that's why it was there.

I'm against the idea. It's dangerous to rely on it. If you don't know to check the chamber you shouldn't be touching a gun. If I need that weapon to defend myself I don't want to find out the LCI is stuck on "loaded".

@N.U.G.U.N.
I understand your comments but I don't think any of those points are a good justification. Cooper had it right when he issued his 4 rules. The difference between the NRA and Cooper is that the NRA rules are not consistent with actually fighting with a gun.

Extra safety options that do not detract from good gun handling aren't really making us safer. At best the LCI is irrelevant.

In combat you perform immediate (or remedial) action and continue shooting. If there is no longer a threat then you can check condition of readiness (which isn't vision dependent) and move on.

Finally, making "safer" guns I think is a bad move strategically. The only "safe" guns are Nerf. Given a firearm of unknown state (loaded or unloaded) and going through the firing process is good way get a gun to go off. With that kind of ignorance I don't have much hope for a nub stopping somebody from pulling a trigger.

I don't think these are a bad feature and I'll explain why:

1. The "gun is always loaded" rule has been dropped from a lot of training material because it's a paradoxical rule. It conflicts with other rules (ie: Keep gun unloaded until you are ready to use it!). It's a "mindset" more than a rule. One I think is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to have btw.

See my post here for more on this:
http://nugun.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/nra-has-i...

2. Extra safety options may keep a Darwin award from being issued.

3. Speed of recognition. There are times when you might want to quickly know if a handgun is loaded. (ie: combat) Saw you had a jam or something. You recycle the slide and can quickly see the round chambered. Or, you get clubbed on the back of your head and knocked unconscious. Your wife grabs your gun and can quickly tell whether a round was chambered. (Not everyone carries hot.)

4. Legal defense for gun manufacturers. They need every legal defense they can get.

I don't use the one on my XD-45 to make sure the chamber is empty, I use it to make sure the chamber is loaded.

I understand what you are saying though. Letting people get in the habit of letting their guard down if the LCI is negative.

I like 'em. My S&W 1911 has a little notch on the top that lets me see brass if there's a round in the chamber, though I think Springfield did it best with their XD pistols as you can feel a hump if there's a round in there.

Of course, I only use them to make pretty sure the gun's got a round chambered in it, not the other way around. It isn't unloaded until i've got visual confirmation and my pinky doing a prostate exam on the chamber.

And even worse are the designs that leave a port in which you're supposed to look to see the cartridge base if one's in there. Which means turning it up and hoping you have enough light to see it.

And, if you're using ammo with a steel or other dark case, might not be able to. Which could be embarrassing.

Personally, I chamber-check with a finger because of the low-light situations that you mention.

Great point- RULE #1: “All guns are always loaded.”
I also think they take away from the looks/lines of the gun most times.